Map Editor - Stat Limit Removal

In the Map Editor, the only type of unit that has much use for being in your map is the Other/Rare. But it's still annoying how it has limits.
So here is my proposal -
Remove those Stat Limits. For example, if I want a transportation unit and to classify it as a transportation unit. I can't though, because the stats won't let me go low enough or high enough to use them. But if these limits are removed then I can have the stats that I want in my own map or scenario.

The Advantages -
1. Making bombs. I want to make a strong, nuke type weapon.
2. Higher Prices. Some things are stronger than normal, so get a large price for them!
3. Collateral Destroyers. Aids bombs, nukes, viruses, and much more. Basicly if you wanna screw over reinforcements for your enemy. WHICH IS STRATEGY, by the way!
4. More variety.

The Disadvantages -
1. Might harm the system with how much it needs to do to determine a winner.
2. Longer fights, poor watchers!

The Things That Can Be Considered Disadvantages But Are Not Because -
1. "Absurb units now!"
Only in the maps that want those. And it's the player's choice if they want to play that map. If those units DO get a good map, then the creator will make it for the best due to the very fact it's a good map. That might be stereotyping but still.
2. "Less Strategy"
Depends on how the creator makes it.

I wouldn't remove the limit or else newbies will make maps with absurdly strong units....

Well who is going to play those maps?
Besides, people can already make absurdly strong units. Sometimes it fits into the game.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 06.06.2015 at 17:08

I wouldn't remove the limit or else newbies will make maps with absurdly strong units....

People Make those Anyway Just In Other/Rare. This Is A Great Suggestion And Would Help All Maps.

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 06.06.2015 at 18:08

People Make those Anyway Just In Other/Rare. This Is A Great Suggestion And Would Help All Maps.

In what sense would it help having even far more absurdly strong units?
Removing the lowest limit seems legit but what about the high limits?

Skrevet av YoukCat, 06.06.2015 at 17:27

Well who is going to play those maps?
Besides, people can already make absurdly strong units. Sometimes it fits into the game.

You're right, there already are... but all that people that already play those absurd maps would play the other even more absurd ones...

Skrevet av RaulPB, 06.06.2015 at 18:18

Skrevet av YoukCat, 06.06.2015 at 17:27

Well who is going to play those maps?
Besides, people can already make absurdly strong units. Sometimes it fits into the game.

You're right, there already are... but all that people that already play those absurd maps would play the other even more absurd ones...

Does Not Matter At All If Units Are Absurd, If It's Balanced People Will Play It, If Not,They Won't. But Removing The Restrictions On This Will Have Benefits That Far Outreach The Benefits

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 06.06.2015 at 18:25

Does Not Matter At All If Units Are Absurd, If It's Balanced People Will Play It, If Not,They Won't. But Removing The Restrictions On This Will Have Benefits That Far Outreach The Benefits

My question is simple: Is RP balanced?
Unless I'm told what the actual advantages are, I'm afraid I won't support such change.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 06.06.2015 at 18:34

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 06.06.2015 at 18:25

Does Not Matter At All If Units Are Absurd, If It's Balanced People Will Play It, If Not,They Won't. But Removing The Restrictions On This Will Have Benefits That Far Outreach The Benefits

My question is simple: Is RP balanced?
Unless I'm told what the actual advantages are, I'm afraid I won't support such change.

The Advantages -
1. Making bombs. I want to make a strong, nuke type weapon.
2. Higher Prices. Some things are stronger than normal, so get a large price for them!
3. Collateral Destroyers. Aids bombs, nukes, viruses, and much more. Basicly if you wanna screw over reinforcements for your enemy. WHICH IS STRATEGY, by the way!
4. More variety.
The Disadvantages -
1. Might harm the system with how much it needs to do to determine a winner.
2. Longer fights, poor watchers!
The Things That Can Be Considered Disadvantages But Are Not Because -
1. "Absurb units now!"
Only in the maps that want those. And it's the player's choice if they want to play that map. If those units DO get a good map, then the creator will make it for the best due to the very fact it's a good map. That might be stereotyping but still.
2. "Less Strategy"
Depends on how the creator makes it.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 06.06.2015 at 18:34

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 06.06.2015 at 18:25

Does Not Matter At All If Units Are Absurd, If It's Balanced People Will Play It, If Not,They Won't. But Removing The Restrictions On This Will Have Benefits That Far Outreach The Benefits

My question is simple: Is RP balanced?
Unless I'm told what the actual advantages are, I'm afraid I won't support such change.

RP is just a case of units gone wrong

If tanks were allowed to have more than X attack and less than Y defense, we could have a map in which units evolve over time without having to manually add bonus in defense vs certain types of units while allowing strategies like RA to work.
^The same could be said about any other unit and all the strats that benefit it.

*Edited:*
Example
--------- Infantry (From turn 1) 1 attack and 2 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 5) 2 attack and 3 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 9) 2 attack and 4 defense

Variety increases replay-ability. Support.

Possibility of voluntary abuse is not sufficient cause to restrict game variety.

Skrevet av YoukCat, 06.06.2015 at 18:46

The Advantages -
1. Making bombs. I want to make a strong, nuke type weapon.
2. Higher Prices. Some things are stronger than normal, so get a large price for them!
3. Collateral Destroyers. Aids bombs, nukes, viruses, and much more. Basicly if you wanna screw over reinforcements for your enemy. WHICH IS STRATEGY, by the way!
4. More variety.

I don't find these any to be a real advantage. You're basically going to continue the RP legacy, absurdly strong units... I know it's a personal opinion but fuck it.

Skrevet av Tundy, 06.06.2015 at 18:52

If tanks were allowed to have more than X attack and less than Y defense, we could have a map in which units evolve over time without having to manually add bonus in defense vs certain types of units while allowing strategies like RA to work.
^The same could be said about any other unit and all the strats that benefit it.

*Edited:*
Example
--------- Infantry (From turn 1) 1 attack and 2 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 5) 2 attack and 3 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 9) 2 attack and 4 defense

Removing the stat limit would enable stat evolving units???? I don't get it, what does one thing have to be with the other?

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 05:03

Skrevet av Tundy, 06.06.2015 at 18:52

If tanks were allowed to have more than X attack and less than Y defense, we could have a map in which units evolve over time without having to manually add bonus in defense vs certain types of units while allowing strategies like RA to work.
^The same could be said about any other unit and all the strats that benefit it.

*Edited:*
Example
--------- Infantry (From turn 1) 1 attack and 2 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 5) 2 attack and 3 defense
---------Infantry (From turn 9) 2 attack and 4 defense

Removing the stat limit would enable stat evolving units???? I don't get it, what does one thing have to be with the other?

Because Unit Variants Are Restricted By Their Stats, Most Maps With Evolving Units Have To Go Down The Route Of Other Units Instead, Which Means Only A Few Strategies Become Viable Like IMP/Blitz Because All Other Strats Don't DO Anything. If You Want To Make A Really Strong Infantry Unit That Has 10 defence, You CAN'T. Restrictions Being Removed Have Far Reaching Consequences, As It Also Opens The Doors For Other Such Restrictions Being Removed From Map Maker, Which Would Benefit Map Makers And Their Maps Respectively

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 05:02

I don't find these any to be a real advantage. You're basically going to continue the RP legacy, absurdly strong units... I know it's a personal opinion but fuck it.

They are excellent advantages. You can do certain interesting things like starting one player in a scenario off with one really OP unit which he must then fight everyone else with.

Oh, the possibilities! Right now, we don't have many ideas about how this can be useful and frankly it seems a bit useless now, but...

"If you build it, they will come." There are very many keen minds in the map-making community.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 05:03

Removing the stat limit would enable stat evolving units???? I don't get it, what does one thing have to be with the other?

I think the idea is that evolving units require a greater range in unit stats, something not available with such severe stat restrictions.

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 08:03

Because Unit Variants Are Restricted By Their Stats, Most Maps With Evolving Units Have To Go Down The Route Of Other Units Instead, Which Means Only A Few Strategies Become Viable Like IMP/Blitz Because All Other Strats Don't DO Anything. If You Want To Make A Really Strong Infantry Unit That Has 10 defence, You CAN'T. Restrictions Being Removed Have Far Reaching Consequences, As It Also Opens The Doors For Other Such Restrictions Being Removed From Map Maker, Which Would Benefit Map Makers And Their Maps Respectively

If that's the case then I would feel it's okey to remove partially the stat limit. Anyway, I'd still leave a limit so that no one tries to make an adsurd unit over a certain limit.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 08:27

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 08:03

Because Unit Variants Are Restricted By Their Stats, Most Maps With Evolving Units Have To Go Down The Route Of Other Units Instead, Which Means Only A Few Strategies Become Viable Like IMP/Blitz Because All Other Strats Don't DO Anything. If You Want To Make A Really Strong Infantry Unit That Has 10 defence, You CAN'T. Restrictions Being Removed Have Far Reaching Consequences, As It Also Opens The Doors For Other Such Restrictions Being Removed From Map Maker, Which Would Benefit Map Makers And Their Maps Respectively

If that's the case then I would feel it's okey to remove partially the stat limit. Anyway, I'd still leave a limit so that no one tries to make an adsurd unit over a certain limit.

How about removing restrictions per category?

Any unit can have 0 (yes, zero, not one) to 150 attack and 0 to 100 defense, 1 to 35 health, 0 to 500 collateral, -3 to 300 range, 0 to 100 critical, 0 to 10,000 cost regardless of unit type.

I think that ought to work pretty well.

Skrevet av International, 07.06.2015 at 08:36

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 08:27

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 08:03

Because Unit Variants Are Restricted By Their Stats, Most Maps With Evolving Units Have To Go Down The Route Of Other Units Instead, Which Means Only A Few Strategies Become Viable Like IMP/Blitz Because All Other Strats Don't DO Anything. If You Want To Make A Really Strong Infantry Unit That Has 10 defence, You CAN'T. Restrictions Being Removed Have Far Reaching Consequences, As It Also Opens The Doors For Other Such Restrictions Being Removed From Map Maker, Which Would Benefit Map Makers And Their Maps Respectively

If that's the case then I would feel it's okey to remove partially the stat limit. Anyway, I'd still leave a limit so that no one tries to make an adsurd unit over a certain limit.

How about removing restrictions per category?

Any unit can have 0 (yes, zero, not one) to 150 attack and 0 to 100 defense, 1 to 35 health, 0 to 500 collateral, -3 to 300 range, 0 to 100 critical, 0 to 10,000 cost regardless of unit type.

I think that ought to work pretty well.

But If You Are Having These New Restrictions Be So High, Why Have Restrictions In The First Place? And Having Health Restricted Is Also One Of The Biggest Problems In The First Place As It Adds So Many Restrictions For Maps, Having Health As A Limit Of 1000 Would Be The First Step To Fixing This, 35 is far too low and So Is 100 for other units.

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 08:55

By the way, you do realize that 100 health is making units 15 times stronger, right?

1,000 health is making units 150 times stronger, compared to the default units.

That's more overpowered than units have any right to be.

Skrevet av International, 07.06.2015 at 08:59

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 08:55

By the way, you do realize that 100 health is making units 15 times stronger, right?

1,000 health is making units 150 times stronger, compared to the default units.

That's more overpowered than units have any right to be.

1000 Health Is Easily Justifiable For Some Map Mechanics, For Example, An Incredibly Weak 1/1/0 Unit With 1000 health that requires a large stack to kill it because of its HP As A Slowing Mechanic, High HP Can Be Utilised In An Incredible Amount Of Ways, Your Thinking Is Simply Too Narrow Minded, One Must Think Of The Potential Possibilities From A Map Makers POV And Or Have Made Maps For Them To Even Have A Simple Understanding Or Valid Opinion In Such An Argument. I Believe Most If Not ALL Map Makers Would Agree With Me That Removing Restrictions Altogether Or At Least Having A MASSIVE Range Would Have Far Reaching Positive Consequences For Maps And The Atwar Community.

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 09:04

Your Thinking Is Simply Too Narrow Minded, One Must Think Of The Potential Possibilities From A Map Makers POV

I agree on that, I really can't see the possibilities with this implementation... that's why I am begging someone to give me an example of how can a absurdly op unit (such as 1k HP) would be useful for map making. That basically means having a unit that can single handedly destroy a huge army by simply doing nothing.

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 09:26

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 09:04

Your Thinking Is Simply Too Narrow Minded, One Must Think Of The Potential Possibilities From A Map Makers POV

I agree on that, I really can't see the possibilities with this implementation... that's why I am begging someone to give me an example of how can a absurdly op unit (such as 1k HP) would be useful for map making. That basically means having a unit that can single handedly destroy a huge army by simply doing nothing.

I Stated One Use Off The Top Of My Head Above. It Simply Allows For Far More Complex Interactions Between Units Raul, Another Example That Would Work Would Be On A Zombie Apoc Map, Where One Unit With Absurd HP Is A Mechanic For Buying Turns Against The Horde .

Heres an example i drew up quickly for you, the red indicate The Wall units, Yellow Human Resistance, Green Zombie cities And Purple Scenario units late game or w/e.
For Example The Zombies Would Have Scenario Units That Drain Their Income So They MUST Suicide There Units To Build More And If Restrictions Were Used, The Zombies could have cheap units that have High Upkeep Which Reinforces The Suicide Aspect Until They Break Through The Relatively Weak 1/1/0/1000 Wall, Which Would Buy The Humans Time, Bear In Mind This Is An Idea I Just Formulated Now Im Sure Tunder/Aetius/Pyrrhus/Tik-Tok Etc have already come up with other ideas using High HP

Skrevet av RaulPB, 07.06.2015 at 09:26

Skrevet av Morgan The Brit, 07.06.2015 at 09:04

Your Thinking Is Simply Too Narrow Minded, One Must Think Of The Potential Possibilities From A Map Makers POV

I agree on that, I really can't see the possibilities with this implementation... that's why I am begging someone to give me an example of how can a absurdly op unit (such as 1k HP) would be useful for map making. That basically means having a unit that can single handedly destroy a huge army by simply doing nothing.

Unkillable units can finally be used

Player A gets a unkillable unit that has a high-upkeep and can only be moved by a special transport.
Player B must destroy the special transport using submarines

the unkillable unit has 1 defense and 5000 hp, so the transport defends first, when the transport dies then the unkillable unit kills the submarine due to the high HP
Now the unkillable unit is stuck because the transport is gone

Support. Really want this.

Skrevet av Tundy, 07.06.2015 at 11:25

Now the unkillable unit is stuck because the transport is gone

I just can't think of a way of using it properly on a game I guess, but if that's useful for you guys... then I'll support it! XD I'm just afraid some people might exploit this feature to make absurd maps or won't be smart enough to not abuse it.

More flexibility? Absolutely.
Eliminate all limitations? Not sure; probably no.

I think the stats should be these then:
Attack: 0 - 250
Defense: 0 - 250
Critical: 0 - 100
Collateral: 0 - 100,000 (If a unit is supposed to destroy a city to fail the enemy's reinforcement gain, then this is for it!)
Hit Points: 0 - 1,000
Capacity: 0 - 1,000 (I've seen big stacks.)
Move Range: 0 - 250
View Range: 0 - 1,000
Cost: 0 - 1,000,000 (There can be some expensive units)

Skrevet av YoukCat, 09.06.2015 at 14:46

I think the stats should be these then:
Attack: 0 - 250
Defense: 0 - 250
Critical: 0 - 100
Collateral: 0 - 100,000 (If a unit is supposed to destroy a city to fail the enemy's reinforcement gain, then this is for it!)
Hit Points: 0 - 1,000
Capacity: 0 - 1,000 (I've seen big stacks.)
Move Range: 0 - 250
View Range: 0 - 1,000
Cost: 0 - 1,000,000 (There can be some expensive units)

ABSOLUTELY NO

Way too high.

Let me measure attack power in terms of "tanks." 8 attack, 5 critical, 7 health.

Let's analyze that through the game mechanics.

First, the default tank.
8 attack is 4.5 average damage. 5 critical means a 0.05 chance of another 8 attack, or 0.4 additional average attack. That's 4.9 average attack damage per phase for as long as its 7 health lasts. For convenience, let's call that 34.3 attack power.

Second, the most OP attack unit you can make by the limits proposed.
250 attack is 125.5 average damage. 100 critical means 1.00 chance of another 250 attack, or 250 additional average attack. That's 375.5 average attack damage per phase for as long as its 1,000 health lasts. Same calculation as above, that's 375,500 attack power.

375,500 over 34.3 is 10948 (rounded to nearest integer).

In other words, what you are proposing is a massive stack of 11,000 tanks flying around at 250 range, all in ONE UNIT.

Tell me again why units need to ever be that OP? Even in current RP maps, known for their overpowered and abundant units, a unit as strong as 11,000 tanks with 250 range will be enough to destroy the armies of every player on the map.

There is absolutely no reason to make the limits that high.

Skrevet av YoukCat, 09.06.2015 at 14:46

I think the stats should be these then:
Attack: 0 - 250
Defense: 0 - 250
Critical: 0 - 100
Collateral: 0 - 100,000 (If a unit is supposed to destroy a city to fail the enemy's reinforcement gain, then this is for it!)
Hit Points: 0 - 1,000
Capacity: 0 - 1,000 (I've seen big stacks.)
Move Range: 0 - 250
View Range: 0 - 1,000
Cost: 0 - 1,000,000 (There can be some expensive units)

Wow..... simply wow....
What kind of game do you want atWar to become?? Armageddon??
1k capacity??? What kind of map enables you to make such huge amount of units, except for RP??? 1k view range... lol the power!!!! I can spy the whole world, and my hot neighbour with that

Skrevet av International, 11.06.2015 at 04:54

Skrevet av YoukCat, 09.06.2015 at 14:46

I think the stats should be these then:
Attack: 0 - 250
Defense: 0 - 250
Critical: 0 - 100
Collateral: 0 - 100,000 (If a unit is supposed to destroy a city to fail the enemy's reinforcement gain, then this is for it!)
Hit Points: 0 - 1,000
Capacity: 0 - 1,000 (I've seen big stacks.)
Move Range: 0 - 250
View Range: 0 - 1,000
Cost: 0 - 1,000,000 (There can be some expensive units)

ABSOLUTELY NO

Way too high.

Let me measure attack power in terms of "tanks." 8 attack, 5 critical, 7 health.

Let's analyze that through the game mechanics.

First, the default tank.
8 attack is 4.5 average damage. 5 critical means a 0.05 chance of another 8 attack, or 0.4 additional average attack. That's 4.9 average attack damage per phase for as long as its 7 health lasts. For convenience, let's call that 34.3 attack power.

Second, the most OP attack unit you can make by the limits proposed.
250 attack is 125.5 average damage. 100 critical means 1.00 chance of another 250 attack, or 250 additional average attack. That's 375.5 average attack damage per phase for as long as its 1,000 health lasts. Same calculation as above, that's 375,500 attack power.

375,500 over 34.3 is 10948 (rounded to nearest integer).

In other words, what you are proposing is a massive stack of 11,000 tanks flying around at 250 range, all in ONE UNIT.

Tell me again why units need to ever be that OP? Even in current RP maps, known for their overpowered and abundant units, a unit as strong as 11,000 tanks with 250 range will be enough to destroy the armies of every player on the map.

There is absolutely no reason to make the limits that high.

UnKillable Units Will Finally Be A Reality, Not To Mention High Values Can Work In Maps, You Refuse To See From A Map Maker's Perspective